505 Turbo confusion, model years, and Engine systems.

John Goodyear (jjg@optsys.com)
Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:52:19 -0400

As the person who probably contributed the most to confusion of turbo
systems. I feel obligated to reprint this information that I some how
forgot or missed.

For all those who might of got lost in the shuffle or forgot this too.

Francios's reply well below adequately describes the differences between the
N9TE and N9TEA.

I add from Jim Lill:

> > > The 88 and 89 wagon are N9TEA w/160HP
> > > 87-89 sedan are N9TEA w/180HP

> > > > only the N9TEA regulates boost via the EZK ECU

Regarding the decreased HP in the wagon:

"I think that the boost or timing is limited at high rpm on it, thus the
HP. The Torque at 2000 RPM is the same. A ROM swap in the ezk will make it
a "sedan""

And finally a comment from myself and Joe Grubbs regarding N9TEA:

John Goodyear wrote:

> Like I said, If the 505 turbo has the system as described above, and I
> understood Joe correctly. There is no need for anything else to increase
> boost. No SAAB ECU's and electronics. No $5.00 aquarium valves and
silicon
> hose. No hand made comparators to control boost.
>
> Am I missing something here Guys? I would beg for a system like this in
my
> Conquest.

Exactly what I'm thinking--I try to tell people that if you
are blessed with an N9TEA, don't try to re-engineer the car.
The turbocharger technology used in these later 505 Turbos
was developed from years of Peugeot's racing experience.

This adaptive boost/ignition control was perfected in the
205 and 405 Turbo 16 rally cars. I have a Popular Science
article from the mid-80s that says Peugeot extracted
420+ bhp (!!!) from the 505 Turbo's motor for race purposes
using this technology--everything you need is already there...

Happy Hot-rodding!

Joe

Happy Hot-rodding!

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Francois Dion [mailto:francois@hyperreal.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 3:00 PM
To: John Goodyear
Cc: 'Peugeot Mailing list'; Antares987@aol. com; Joe Grubbs; Jim Lill
Subject: Re: Electronic wastegate

John Goodyear wrote:

> Help me here I am getting confused with all the talk about Wastegates.
>
> First:
> Alan wrote:
> "I'm tired of this inconsistent boost pressure BS. I'm gonna take off
those
> bypass hoses and adjust my rusted up wastegate actuator adjustment."
> He said this, after installing a valve to bleed off boost to the actuator.
>
> In my car this setup works fine. I do not have any electrovalves
> controlling the wastegate. Mechanical boost pressure acting on a
diaphragm
> in conjunction with a spring control whether the actuator is open, closed,
> or partially open. If my ECU detects knock it retards timing not boost.
If
> my ECU detects Serious overboost it shuts down fuel killing the engine
> momentarily to stop impending destruction.

This is my understanding of how it works on the N9TE too. I think
howeverthat
Alan has a N9TEA

> Joe Grubbs Wrote:
> "You can set the boost as high as you want, the ECU automatically
> limits the boost upon knocking. PMA told me that the ECU
> will run the boost as high as possible (upper limit set by
> wastegate actuator) until knocking is detected. Upon knocking,
> it will try to retard the timing by 2 degrees.

Up to here this is what the N9TE will do too.

> If it knocks again,
> it will change the pulse width to the electrovalve slightly to
> reduce boost pressure by about 2 psi. After a time interval,
> it will allow boost to increase. If it continually has to
> reduce boost, the ECU learns the correct pulse width to use
> as a baseline. It is my understanding that this memory is
> erased when the ignition is turned off."

This is N9TEA operation. You cant do that on a N9TE. It hasthe equivalent of
the
Saab APC.

> Like I said, If the 505 turbo has the system as described above, and I
> understood Joe correctly. There is no need for anything else to increase
> boost. No SAAB ECU's and electronics. No $5.00 aquarium valves and
silicon
> hose. No hand made comparators to control boost.

The comparator is basically a replacement to the Saab APC unit. I
waswondering
if APC or not, let's say you have an ECU or even simple
comparator that does the job, it's still a mechanical wastegate that does
the job, and was wondering if an electromechanical device wouldn't be
better than a pressure mechanical device. Faster and possibly more
precise...

Jim told me about the N9TEA wastegate electromechanical valve,
and I tought it was something like that, but it's yet another APC style
way of controlling boost (a valve on the wastegate hose) unless I
misunderstood totally the concept. The same thing a Greddy Profec
or HKS boost controller will do. None of these address the fact that
the wastegate triggers at anything between 500 something mBars to 800+
mBars on a wastegate adjusted to 620 mBars on the N9TE for example.

I wonder if the wastegate at it's shortest would react more precisely. If
it does, then I would slot the end so that I can still activate the
wastegate
with a solenoid and keep the mechanical actuator for regular operation.
If a problem appears (detected by the comparator unit), the solenoid
kicks in. This should be an exception, not the rule and so no intensive
on/off of the wastegate.

Ciao,
Francois Dion (francois@hyperreal.org)

--
Member: FLU #1722, PCNA
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/zagato/101/launch.html
Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Lancia, Peugeot, Volvo, Solex